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[讨论] 【闲谈】对比圣西尔和絮歇蛮有意思的

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发表于 2015-7-7 23:59:45 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式


1.两人的指挥风格都是冷静自若又敢于冒险,作战能力在元帅当中居于一流地位,但是名气相对较低;

2.圣西尔战前是艺术家,絮歇是大学生出身,都是知识分子,素质比较高;

3.为将清正,不滥加掳掠;

4.与拿破仑的关系起初并不好,相当程度上受此影响而未能成为第一批元帅,而且在帝国初期的战争中要么是在次要战场,要么是居于下位。但是最终还是得到了将星闪耀的机会,以独立指挥作战的方式取得了拿破仑的认可——圣西尔在第一次波洛茨克,絮歇在伊比利亚半岛。拿破仑对絮歇的夸奖就不说了,在1813年秋季战役,拿破仑称圣西尔是“他是我们防线中最优秀的人,尽管我比他更善于进攻。”;

5.这两个人在防御战方面也都有出彩表现,在元帅中不多见——圣西尔在德累斯顿,絮歇在瓦尔河;

6.尽管时人对他们的能力评价一般都很高,但是絮歇经常受到上司的表扬,冷淡耿直的圣西尔则老是和指挥官关系紧张——莫罗称赞絮歇是一流的参谋,却缺乏根据地指责圣西尔疏于支援友军。

7.噢,还有一个共同点,他们后来和马塞纳关系都不好 XD




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 楼主| 发表于 2015-7-8 00:02:03 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 月光丸 于 2015-7-10 13:30 编辑

8.絮歇在百日王朝选择支持拿破仑,圣西尔选择退隐,两个优秀的将才都没有在拿破仑最后的事业中充分发挥作用。不过这也影响了他们后来的仕途,圣西尔复出后为重组法国陆军做了很大努力,絮歇嘛,他比较短命···考虑到他在半岛的优异表现,哪怕在法国当个省长都会很有作为。总之,两人的行政管理能力是无可置疑的;

9.絮歇的家境比圣西尔好,家庭生活也美满很多倍,导致两人性格不同。两人都曾因为屈居人下而心怀不满,但也称不上恃才傲物。

个人感觉絮歇更加渴望功成名就,圣西尔相对淡泊寡欲,这从他们对待拿破仑的态度可以看出来:絮歇早就认识拿破仑,但似乎在意大利有点不服气(据说拿破仑也有点亏待他),帝国期间一直效忠皇帝也算是明哲之举。反观圣西尔,作为一个共和派,他不太支持拿破仑称帝,后期与拿破仑和解也多出于军事才华上的互相欣赏。

看的资料不多,不太清楚絮歇和圣西尔对拿破仑的真实态度。不过据我揣度,絮歇将自己的功业和国家的命运寄托于拿破仑身上,而圣西尔对拿破仑的政治作为一直持较强的批判态度(这和威灵顿挺像的),在回忆录里面也多有对拿破仑的批评;

10.圣西尔是莱茵军团系,絮歇是意大利军团系,这可能对他们的风格有一定影响。起码在革命战争中,和德赛交好的圣西尔更多给人一种智将的印象,而与茹贝尔关系密切的絮歇更多是以顽强勇猛著称。

两人在帝国之前就做过军长级的指挥官,圣西尔指挥莱茵-摩泽尔军团的左路军在埃特林根巧妙制胜,而絮歇指挥意大利军团的中部在瓦尔河取得了类似于“斯巴达人在温泉关”的战绩;

11.两人都珍惜士卒性命,得到他们的信赖,但絮歇很善于鼓舞军心,圣西尔不太关心和士兵的关系;

12.两个人和各自的妻子都恩爱甚笃。

13.絮歇和圣西尔似乎没有什么显著的交集。

除了两个例外:1799年在诺维之战中,絮歇担任意大利军团参谋长,而圣西尔指挥右翼,这大概是他们最密切的一次共同作战。

1809年初,絮歇随第五军围攻萨拉戈萨,而圣西尔率领加泰罗尼亚军团作战;絮歇升任第三军军长后不久,久攻赫罗纳不下的圣西尔被解职。







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发表于 2015-7-14 18:17:07 | 显示全部楼层
弱弱地请问一句,第二次比伯拉赫之战真的2万胜6万吗?维基那里数据是2万对2万5,下文来自于headley的《napoleon and his marshals》

The Austrian general, thinking it would be unsafe to put the defile in his rear, left ten thousand men to guard it while he posted his army behind the town on an eminence forming an excellent position. As St. Cyr came up he saw at once the advantage it gave the enemy. But, thinking the rout of the ten thousand guarding the pass would shake the courage of the whole army in rear, he wished to order an attack immediately, and would have done so had his whole corps of twenty-five thousand men been with him. But his best division under Ney had been sent to observe the Danube, and though orders were immediately dispatched to hasten him up he could nowhere be found. At this lucky moment, however, he heard the firing of Richenpanse's division, which had come up by a cross road. Thus strengthened, he no longer hesitated, and without waiting for the whole to form in order he hurled his own battalions on the enemy. The order to charge was given, and his brave troops advanced at double-quick time to the onset. Overthrown and routed, the enemy swept in a confused mass through the defile and through the village, hurrying onward to the heights on which the army was posted. Following close on their heels, St. Cyr entered Biberach in hot pursuit.

    Here, however, he arrested and re-formed his men, and began to reconnoitre the enemy's position. The river Riess—crossed by a single bridge—and a marsh lay between the village and those heights on which nearly sixty thousand men were drawn up in order of battle. It was a bold attempt to attack with a little over twenty thousand men sixty thousand occupying so formidable a position; and for a moment he hesitated in his course. Pushing forward his men, however, he crossed the Riess and the marsh, and drew up in front of the enemy. At this moment he saw the Austrians he had routed at the defile approach the army on the heights. The ranks opened to let them pass to the rear, and in this movement his clear and practised eye saw evidences of alarm and irresolution which convinced him at once that the firmness of the enemy's troops was shaken. He immediately sent forward some skirmishers to fire on them. The general discharge which this mere insult drew forth made it still clearer that the whole moral power, which is ever greater than physical strength, was on his side; and though the enemy outnumbered him three to one, and occupied a splendid position, his resolution was immediately taken. Forming his three divisions into three solid columns, he began to ascend with a firm step the slopes of the Wittemberg.


    Nothing can be more sublime than this faith in the moral over the physical. This was not the headlong rashness of Murat, reckless alike of numbers or position, but the clear calculations Of reason. St. Cyr, who was one of the ablest tacticians in the French army, perceived at a glance that on one side were numbers and irresolution, on the other confidence and courage. When the Austrians saw those columns scaling the mountain-side with such an intrepid step and bold presence, they were seized with a panic, and turned and fled, leaving thousands of prisoners in the hands of St. Cyr. He carried out here successfully the very plan he proposed to Moreau when the enemy lay packed in a curve of the Danube.
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发表于 2015-7-14 18:19:52 | 显示全部楼层
10.圣西尔是莱茵军团系,絮歇是意大利军团系,这可能对他们的风格有一定影响。起码在革命战争中,和德赛交好的圣西尔更多给人一种智将的印象,而与茹贝尔关系密切的絮歇更多是以顽强勇猛著称。

------------------

由于莫罗事件,这一派系的将领,例如乌迪诺,苏汉,圣西尔,格鲁希还有和莫罗关系亲密的麦克唐纳都受到打压,第一批元帅里没有他们的名字。但絮歇和维克托可是拿破仑一手带出来的意大利军团嫡系军官,怎么也榜上无名。
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 楼主| 发表于 2015-7-14 19:37:28 | 显示全部楼层
客蒙 发表于 2015-7-14 18:19
10.圣西尔是莱茵军团系,絮歇是意大利军团系,这可能对他们的风格有一定影响。起码在革命战争中,和德赛交好 ...

絮歇和拿破仑关系不好。
http://bbs.napolun.com/forum.php ... hlight=%D0%F5%D0%AA

维克托在马伦哥立了大功,同样力挽狂澜的还有小克勒曼,这两个人都没封帅,你说这是为啥~

钱德勒版《拿破仑的元帅们》:
Yet Victor certainly had demonstrated military prowess equaling that of some of the new marshals. Clearly Napoleon had doubts about this man. These doubts had been displayed in 1801,when the First Consul assigned V ictor the post of captain- general of Louisiana. Although V ictor never actually crossed to America, the fact that he was ordered to this decid­edly backwater command indicates Bonaparte felt his services were expendable.

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 楼主| 发表于 2015-7-14 19:40:25 | 显示全部楼层
其实嫡系不嫡系的不是看职务,是看私人关系。和上司合不来,服役再久也白搭
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发表于 2015-7-14 19:54:33 | 显示全部楼层
月光丸 发表于 2015-7-14 19:37
絮歇和拿破仑关系不好。
http://bbs.napolun.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=38333&highlight=%D0%F5 ...

谢谢。维克托篇我已经看完了。钱德勒的元帅传已看了十篇。
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