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[讨论] 关于半岛战争英军第一战 the battle of Rolica 的几个问题

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发表于 2012-8-14 12:10:04 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 Abercomby 于 2012-8-14 12:19 编辑

1.       此战的地名Rolica,我查了下在葡萄牙语中字母c的发音为【s,也就是说应该音译为“罗里萨”而不是“罗里卡”。
2.       此战中不听号令牺牲的英军上校名为莱克(Lake)而不是“库克”,他是第29团的上校,我没有找到有关他是中路指挥的说法,他也不是第一个在半岛阵亡的英军军官。
3.       此战结果按Oman 的说法不能算是法军打败,英军前三次进攻均告失败,最终德拉波得尔发现侧翼被迂回后下令四个营两两掩护交替撤退,不过在挤过山口的时候发生了点混乱。

想听一下大家的看法和掌握的资料。上面那个葡萄牙语字母打不出来,大家可以看这里:http://www.ryedu.net/Article/pty/200701/1739.html就是那个c下面多一撇的字母

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发表于 2012-8-14 12:17:16 | 显示全部楼层
先问一下那个横线是怎么搞出来的?
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 楼主| 发表于 2012-8-14 12:20:50 | 显示全部楼层
高守业 发表于 2012-8-14 12:17
先问一下那个横线是怎么搞出来的?

我也不清楚,重打了一遍
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发表于 2012-8-14 13:15:17 | 显示全部楼层
1 确实应该是“萨”,翻译词典给的译名是:

当然“利”“里”字音相同,可以置换。早期的翻译确实经常出现用英式发音发其他语言的问题,比如著名的“圣希莱”“莫兰德”“古丁”“奎因特”等都是错误翻译。
2 是莱克(Lake)而不是库克(Cook?),大致是有人把a commander of centre误看成centre commander吧,不过英军战场上仅旅就有6个,这错误犯的...
3 此战是一个战术性失败,虽然法军以1比4处于人数的劣势,不过却以高伤亡撤出战场。当然如果按四臂村的标准就是一个平局,按别列津纳与申布隆的标准这就是一场“胜利”。
It is ironic that the two mistakes the British made at Rolica were both made by old India hands trying to carve out a European reputation -  Wellesley, showing caution when he should have tried dash, and Lake, showing dash when he should have shown caution.
半岛战争 金重远:


http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/virtual/c_rolica.html
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_rolica1.html

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 楼主| 发表于 2012-8-14 13:22:33 | 显示全部楼层
高守业 发表于 2012-8-14 13:15
1 确实应该是“萨”,翻译词典给的译名是:

当然“利”“里”字音相同,可以置换。早期的翻译确实经常出 ...

Oman说法军伤亡600.不过考虑到军中瑞士部队的临阵变节这个战果也不容易了,法国人打的挺顽强的
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发表于 2012-8-14 16:22:37 | 显示全部楼层
其他一些书籍对此战的评价:

Roliça was a savage little overture to the long Peninsular campaign that was to follow. The British had narrowly won. Wellesley’s casualties were 500 to Delaborde’s 700. Wellesley later reckoned Roliça was ‘one of our most important affairs … it was terrible hard work … our men fought monstrous well’. Both armies had now got the measure of each other. The British quickly realised that even with overwhelming numbers no battle with the French was going to be a walkover. And those French soldiers who had hoped that the British had forgotten how to fight on land were disappointed.

Snow, Peter (2010-09-16). To War with Wellington (Kindle Locations 385-390). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.

The French suffered 600 casualties at Roliça but, significantly, very few prisoners were taken. This appears to endorse Wellesley’s oft-repeated complaint that he was poorly supplied with cavalry in the Peninsula, who were invaluable for pursuit, during which the majority of captives were usually taken. Nevertheless, the allies pressed the French withdrawal enough to take three guns; the capture of cannon often being taken as an indication of victory. The British suffered 441 killed, wounded or taken prisoner. The majority of the Portuguese soldiers present marched under Trant who, never having engaged the enemy seriously, either suffered no casualties or failed to record them. Yet Trant had a longer route to travel than Ferguson and needed to circumnavigate the deep gorge on the French left. Unsurprisingly, the first battalion of the 29th sustained the worst losses, with 190 casualties and prisoners. Warre commented on the high proportion of officers in the casualties suffered at Roliça, including his friend Colonel Stuart of the 9th Regiment who died of his wounds on 20 August, along with two other officers killed in his brigade alone.

Buttery, David (2012-05-24). Wellington Against Junot: The First Invasion of Portugal 1807-1808 (Kindle Locations 2368-2377). Casemate Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Buttery在注释里说数据来自Digby的Data Book,他接着写道:
As is often the case regarding inconclusive clashes, both sides claimed a victory. Though the French made much of the disparity in numbers, the amount of troops who actually engaged had been nearly equal and the French enjoyed strong defensive ground at their secondary position. Nevertheless, as Oman conceded: ‘Delaborde had fought a most admirable rearguard action, holding on to the last moment, and escaping by his prompt manoeuvres …’41 However, hewent on to say that Delaborde could have avoided fighting at all since he had already delayed Wellesley and the likelihood of joining with Loison was remote, Loison being so many miles away that he barely heard cannon fire in the distance. In addition, Loison’s force was tired and probably ineffective having marched for days and he would not have wished to fight a serious action. Therefore he concluded that Delaborde had risked his division for little gain.

在Guthrie's War: A Surgeon of the Peninsula and Waterloo中虽然没有此战的过多内容,但不幸的朱诺却又“被”元帅了:
Three days after the combat at Roliça, Wellesley had covered the landing of Brigadier-General Acland and Anstruther’s Brigades at Maceira bay and now, with around 17,000 bayonets and about 1,500 Portuguese auxiliaries, he was ready to face Marshal Androche Junot’s 13,000 men at Vimeiro. With the two fresh-landed brigades came a third physician, two further staff surgeons and six hospital mates, so increasing the senior staff to eleven and the battalion surgeons to around twenty-three. The battle was fought around the village, with Wellesley’s men finally dispersed along two ridges either side of Vimeiro, most units were on a southwesterly ridge, to the south of which was a small hill with a plateau.

Crumplin, Michael (2010-08-19). Guthrie's War: A Surgeon of the Peninsula and Waterloo (Kindle Locations 780-785). Casemate Publishing. Kindle Edition.
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 楼主| 发表于 2012-8-14 20:11:58 | 显示全部楼层
高守业 发表于 2012-8-14 16:22
其他一些书籍对此战的评价:

Roliça was a savage little overture to the long Peninsular campai ...

朱诺“被”元帅是个老笑话了,我记得最早在铁血就见过
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