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[讨论] 对于Nafziger的一个想法

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发表于 2011-5-9 17:36:46 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
Nafziger所著的《皇帝的刺刀》一书在拿战爱好者心中是战术的极佳读本

不过今天把Duffy的Borodino(72年写的)读了一下,结果发现Nafziger的Napoleon's Invasion of Russia(98年出版)一书有一段对俄军的描写简直是毫无二致

Duffy的描述:
The same brisk and intelligent spirit informed the new tactics. Arakcheev himself had introduced a 'quick' step of 110 paces to the minute to supplement the slow march, though on the parade ground both kinds were still carried out as a stiff-legged goose-step. Otherwise the emphasis was taken off drill and more time was devoted to practical training. Barclay wrote to the generals on 6 September, 1810, that 'the main occupation of a soldier's training should be shooting at a target. The men can become good marksmen only when their officers avoid all compulsion and have a fundamental under- standing of the mentality of the soldier.' He went into more detail in 1811 in the Instructions for Target Practice.
中间还有一些文字略去
In 1812 the Russians went to war with twenty-eight different calibres of infantry muskets, and eleven kinds of short rifles which were issued on the basis of sixteen to every squadron of cuirassiers and dragoons, and twelve to the NCOs and best shots of each jaeger company. Sixty thousand fine English muskets were given to the most deserving soldiers as rewards, which only added to the diversity.

Nafziger的描述:
Other innovations introduced in this period included the 110-pace-per-minute “quick pace” of Count Arakcheyev. Despite this modification, it was still executed in the stiff-legged goose-step. Barclay took much of the emphasis off rote drill and increased the attention to practical training. In prior years the Russian soldier had been taught by the school of Marshal Suvarov that the bayonet was “his friend and the musket was a lazy fellow.” Barclay wrote on 10 September 1810 that “the main occupation of the soldier's training should be shooting at a target. The men can become good marksmen only when their officers avoid all compulsion and have a fundamental understanding of the mentality of the soldier.” In 1811 Barclay issued his “Instructions for Target Practice.”

In 1812 the Russians went to war with twenty-eight different calibers of infantry muskets and eleven different short rifles. The short rifles were issued to the flankers of the cavalry regiments. An additional twelve rifles were issued to the noncommissioned officers and the best shots in each jager company. In addition, as if to further complicate the number of calibers, the English provided 16,000 muskets. These were excellent weapons that were issued as rewards to the soldiers.
Despite the improved attitude towards musketry and marksmanship, the Russians were too deeply steeped in the doctrine of Suvarov and the bayonet for much change to occur.

记得在series上面也看见过讨论说Duffy某处的番号错误被Nafziger完全照搬==
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-9 17:38:42 | 显示全部楼层
不过也有可能是引用材料相同,然则两人都未给出这段描写的来源--
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-9 17:40:33 | 显示全部楼层
另外关于英国援助给俄国的枪支,个人觉得Duffy的6000支比较靠谱,Nafziger的16000不知道是手民误植还是资料来源不一样==
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发表于 2011-5-9 17:49:22 | 显示全部楼层
"Sixty thousand fine English muskets were given to the most deserving soldiers as rewards, which only added to the diversity."
6万支作为rewards似乎多了些。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-9 18:40:18 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 装甲掷弹熊 于 2011-5-9 18:42 编辑

回复 4# iron duke
我觉得有可能是Duffy把六千误写成六万了--这人的书里面typo从来就不少==

我有印象公爵似乎提过俄国从英国那里得到了六千支枪==所以看书的时候居然没看出来他写的是六万==
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-12-9 18:35:18 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 装甲掷弹熊 于 2011-12-9 18:49 编辑

Dominic Lieven的书Russia Against Napoleon The Battle for Europe, 1807 to 1814给出了另一个数据,认为1812-13两年总共获得了十万多支英国步枪,如果上文数据属实的话,那1813的运输压力看来不小(Lieven的引用书目里面包括了大量近年来的拿战好书,看文风总体还算合理)
On the other hand, without the 101,000 muskets imported from Britain in 1812–13 it would have been impossible to arm the reserve units which reinforced the field army in 1813.

注释中说此处来源是Speranskii, Voenno-ekonomicheskaia, pp. 458–9, on the sources of the muskets distributed to the army in 1812–13.

(书中另一处提到In any case there was not much direct help that Britain could offer for a war fought on Russian soil, though the 101,000 muskets it provided in the winter of 1812–13 were to be very useful.如果仅仅是一个冬天就完成,那实在是桩大事件,不知道英方有无对应记载)
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发表于 2011-12-9 19:23:32 | 显示全部楼层
公爵之前举例子时说过俄军比较喜欢用英国援助的布朗贝司。但是这种枪在俄军中并不太多。
另外罗斯一世传有几处也说英国在给大陆诸国发红包时附带的福利有时就是步枪。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-12-12 21:54:21 | 显示全部楼层
今天偶然翻了一下napoleonistyka
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Russian_infantry.htm
发现它也持六万说,结合Lieven的书,看来英国当时卖给俄国的着实不少
Many muskets were purchased in other countries, including 60 000 from Great Britain. The Moscow Grenadier Regiment received large number of British Brown Bess muskets.
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 楼主| 发表于 2012-3-9 18:46:57 | 显示全部楼层
今天到手了Muir的Britain and the Defeat of Napoleon, 1807-1815,六万说与十万说都有其道理
根据Muir的说法,1812年英国援助了五万多支步枪,1813年夏天又运到里加五万支
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