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楼主: 拉摩的侄儿

[讨论] 近卫军在滑铁卢的最后进攻

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发表于 2015-6-16 18:35:54 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2015-6-14 09:53
还有皮雷虽然在左翼边缘,似乎也没有闲置。军官伤亡当日为39,为参战轻骑兵师最高,同时也超过了四臂村 ...

查了一下皮雷下属四个团的情况:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k503971d/f581.image.r

1猎:

6猎:



5枪:

6枪:



四臂村被记成利尼,其中似乎1猎和6猎损失不算太大
只有5枪在滑铁卢损失不算太大

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 楼主| 发表于 2015-6-17 00:23:31 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
明天又要花一天时间搬家,我尽量18日那天总结出来…
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 楼主| 发表于 2015-6-18 21:14:46 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2015-6-14 06:52
拉艾圣周边这时候,不能算太薄弱吧。威灵顿补了几个不伦瑞克营,加上向中移的温克旅可以支援,比起在骑兵冲 ...

这些我都没否认,不过质疑奈伊进攻方向和队形的正是拿破仑本人,并且还不是他在圣赫勒拿的背书,而是出自奈伊副官的回忆。
From this position, one could see the whole battlefield which for six kilometres appeared like a furnace . . . The emperor was on a chair in front of a table on which some maps were spread. This table was set on a pile of straw. General Count Drouot and two ADCs were at his side. He wore his usual grey riding coat over his uniform of a colonel of chasseurs, and on his head his legendary hat. Slumped in his chair, he appeared to me both exhausted and angry. One of the ADCs informed him of my arrival. Without even turning to me, he said out of the blue, ‘Ney has acted stupidly again. He has cost us the day! He has destroyed my cavalry and is ready to destroy my Guard. He manoeuvres like a good-for-nothing. He attacks the plateau obliquely instead of assaulting right at the centre. Go at best speed and order him to modify his march and to pierce the centre of the English position in a compact mass . . .

followed by Besnard [Levavasseur’s batman], I found the Marshal in the middle of the 3rd Grenadiers on the plateau, on foot, bare-headed and his jacket torn, covered in dirt and mud, his bloody sword in his hand. At his side was General Friant, commander of the Guard infantry and one of my old friends, Colonel Poret de Morvan. Followed by Besnard and reining in my horse to the pace of the pas de charge, I gave the Marshal the emperor’s orders; but he replied to me, ‘My dear Crabbeé, it is too late to change. It is here that we must break through or die, and there is no more I can do now.’
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 楼主| 发表于 2015-6-18 21:46:29 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2015-6-14 06:52
拉艾圣周边这时候,不能算太薄弱吧。威灵顿补了几个不伦瑞克营,加上向中移的温克旅可以支援,比起在骑兵冲 ...

英方资料大致会渲染近卫军出动的兵力,常见的论断有最后一击的近卫军有1万人,他们还获得了数量可观的第一军、第二军的支援(有人称各6000)。(Waterloo: The French Perspective Section 9 The Real Crisis)

这些军队也被认为以两个纵队指向了威灵顿的中左翼,因此近卫旅和第五十二团被认为是击退近卫军的头号功臣,而忽视了中路联军沙塞师和不伦瑞克军的努力。包括事后近卫旅获得了“名不副实”的近卫掷弹兵称号,以及谁是首功的争论(The Lie at the Heart of Waterloo: The Battle's Hidden Last Half Hour和Waterloo: The Defeat of Napoleon's Imperial Guard)



如果按照法方观点,参与进攻的应该是中年近卫军的五个营,即掷弹1/3和4,猎兵1/3、2/3和4.
至于第四猎兵团有没有被改编为一个营,或者是两个营组成了一个方阵,Petit 是这么说的:
It was about 7pm: . . . the 3rd and 4th Chasseurs and Grenadiers marched forward. They crossed to the left of the road where they were formed into battalion squares with the exception of the 4th Regiments that, because of their weakness of numbers, formed only one square each.

当然Petit 并不处在第一线,他的说法可能不准,这和身处普村叙述同样可能不准的Pelet一样。

如果是五个营的梯队,而近卫军的进军又是从拉艾圣向左展开的话,那有理由相信,第一个和联军接触的应该是最右侧的掷弹兵两个营,而不可能是距离最远的三个猎兵营。这样的话英国的“官方”观点就靠不住了,而英军的自己也有回忆录证实沙塞的荷兰师发挥了很大作用,虽然他没出现在威灵顿的战报上,早期的一些出版物也不予承认。
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 楼主| 发表于 2015-6-18 23:41:31 | 显示全部楼层
关于掷弹兵两个营面对的敌人,我看了几本不同的著作,基本上没有统一的观点,所以文章里做了模糊处理。

吴塞认为他们先遇到了不伦瑞克营然后是霍尔基特旅,随后遇到了沙塞的反击:
The 1st Battalion of the 3rd Grenadiers (right echelon) overthrew a corps of Brunswick, took possession of the batteries of Cleeves and Lloyd, which were abandoned by the cannoneers; and, by a slight conversion, directed itself towards the left of the brigade of Halkett. The 30th and 73rd English recoiled in disorder.

Henry Houssaye (2014-01-06T16:00:00+00:00). Napoleon And The Campaign Of 1815 : Waterloo [Illustrated Edition] (Kindle Locations 3443-3445). Pickle Partners Publishing. Kindle Edition.

巴布罗认为是不伦瑞克营 汉诺威第五旅和霍尔基特旅。奥兰治亲王指挥的反击被击退后,沙塞救场。
Kruse's men and then the Brunswickers, finding themselves exposed to enemy fire, fell back in search of some protection and perhaps would have retreated still farther had the cavalry deployed in their rear not compelled them to halt. Sir Colin Halkett's men, the majority of whom were recruits, had already looked death in the face two days previously at Quatre Bras and by this point had lost almost all of their officers; finding themselves alone, even though their well-aimed fire had brought the Imperial Guard's advance to a full stop, they too began to disband.
……
Actually, the failure of the French advance was not due to the few hundred muskets that Halkett's brigade had arrayed to defend against it but to the timely intervention of reserve troops from Chasse's Third Netherlands Division.


Barbero, Alessandro (2009-05-26). The Battle: A New History of Waterloo (Kindle Locations 5331-5335). Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Kindle Edition.
其中有一段,被威灵顿派来观察情况的Kelly:
Major Kelly's hypothesis was that the units involved did not belong to the Imperial Guard, but rather were part of d'Erlon's corps, which was in action around La Haye Sainte, a few hundred yards away; but Macready went among the wounded French, questioning them, and found that they were all from the Middle Guard.

Barbero, Alessandro (2009-05-26). The Battle: A New History of Waterloo (Kindle Locations 5380-5383). Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Kindle Edition.

Clayton也认为是汉诺威第五旅和不伦瑞克营,不过他有提到拿骚第一步兵团(?)和汉诺威第一旅也接连后撤。

The appearance of the cavalry effectively steadied the Brunswickers first ordered across by Wellington. The Nassauers also rallied on the 18th Hussars, and this probably encouraged what was left of Colin Halkett’s brigade to face about.

A light dragoon noted in his journal that ‘two columns (one of which, I think, were Hanoverians, the other Scots) were driven back, when some of our officers and cheers from the men succeeded in making the latter front.’ 9 The three fresh Netherlands battalions, 1500 strong, led forward by Detmers, appeared to the right of the Cambridgeshires. The Netherlands report mentioned a triangle and a battalion of light infantry – the remains of Kielmannsegge’s division – set back from the front line and wavering as they approached. 10

Clayton, Tim (2014-09-09). Waterloo: Four Days that Changed EuropeÕs Destiny (Kindle Locations 8491-8495). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
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发表于 2015-6-19 06:27:28 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2015-6-19 07:46 编辑

不伦瑞克,克鲁泽,及英5师更早些遇到攻击是实,但不一定是近卫军。掷弹3,4虽为近卫军,装束上和普通部队无差别。按Pelet的回忆说,掷弹在猎兵后面几百步,猎兵的第一突击纵队就败了。但Christiani,Guillemin等回忆掷弹是在猎兵右侧。
myth and reality一书中和了一下,认为近卫军总共分先后三个突击群,第一是猎兵3,4,第二是掷弹1/3,掷弹1/4,掷弹2/2,第三是掷弹2/3,猎兵2/1,猎兵2/2。
可能是靠中方向先是第一军在打,在猎兵攻击同时或稍后,掷弹加入正战斗中的靠中央战团。
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发表于 2015-6-21 00:03:34 | 显示全部楼层
拉摩的侄儿 发表于 2015-6-18 21:14
这些我都没否认,不过质疑奈伊进攻方向和队形的正是拿破仑本人,并且还不是他在圣赫勒拿的背书,而是出自 ...

虽然奈伊副官回忆拿破仑质疑奈伊,但拿在圣赫勒拿的并没在找替罪羊时稍上这段。相反,拿的版本是四个营中近到达时,见前面骑兵零乱,步兵后退,于是不等余下的八个营,命令其先攻击。十分钟后,其余各营才到。前面四个营及骑兵进展顺利,但普一军这时到了...(Historical memoirs of Napoleon. 1815 P135)
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发表于 2015-6-21 02:44:24 | 显示全部楼层
拉摩的侄儿 发表于 2015-6-18 23:41
关于掷弹兵两个营面对的敌人,我看了几本不同的著作,基本上没有统一的观点,所以文章里做了模糊处理。

...
Major Kelly's hypothesis was that the units involved did not belong to the Imperial Guard, but rather were part of d'Erlon's corps, which was in action around La Haye Sainte, a few hundred yards away; but Macready went among the wounded French, questioning them, and found that they were all from the Middle Guard.

Kelly的说法也不好轻易推翻,Macready是30团2营的。该营是被法军击退,反击大局已定才杀回,抓到的伤兵已经不好分辨是否为攻方阵的,或被反击大潮冲垮的后续部队。
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发表于 2015-6-21 20:06:53 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2015-6-19 06:27
不伦瑞克,克鲁泽,及英5师更早些遇到攻击是实,但不一定是近卫军。掷弹3,4虽为近卫军,装束上和普通部队无 ...

掷弹4团在利尼就有明确记载无熊皮帽,不过掷弹3团有没有我一时没注意到相关材料提到过?
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发表于 2015-6-21 22:32:52 | 显示全部楼层
web2引用过Lachouque的一段。
The Middle Guard - the 3rd and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs - wore the shako; but some some of the gun and pouch straps had to be improvised from twisted string. " (Lachouque - "Waterloo" p 47)
记得他在The Anatomy of Glory也有相同说法
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