二战意大利的战绩 曾横扫乌克兰俘虏10万苏军

iron duke

看来战略上公羊座师在这一战的表现也是对全局有很重要的。
那个意大利维基写得真是很细致，英军里第2RGH损失30，第4CLY损失8辆和英军的资料也相附合。意军火炮损失可能统计不全，因为只列了132炮团的75毫米炮损失1门，第8团Bersaglieri所属47毫米反坦克炮那种小炮可能未统计进去。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-2-2 07:04 编辑 ]

朔风

原帖由 iron duke 于 2008-2-2 06:40 发表
看来战略上公羊座师在这一战的表现也是对全局有很重要的。
那个意大利维基写得真是很细致，英军里第2RGH损失30，第4CLY损失8辆和英军的资料也相附合。意军火炮损失可能统计不全，因为只列了132炮团的75毫米炮损失1门 ...

嗯，这样一来便可以解释了。
意大利军的表现确实挺重要，第22装甲旅应该是通过BIR GOBI那条路与平行前进的第7装甲旅及其余部队集合，然后向托布鲁克非洲军外围阵地发起突然且猛烈的攻击，但是第22装甲旅因为遭遇了公羊座师的阻击，陷入混乱且不得不改变路线，似乎只有第7装甲旅畅通无阻杀了过去，但孤掌难鸣，等到隆美尔反应过来已丧失了进攻良机。（确切的说应该是克鲁威尔反应较快，隆美尔直到SIDI REZEGH战役前都不相信英军在大举反击）此外我记得十字军行动初期托布鲁克守军也试图从内向外突破响应，当时德军那2个装甲师都驻扎在离托布鲁克较远的地方，仍然是意大利人将守军打了回去。

不过有个问题，该战公羊座师的坦克应该主要是L3/35与M11/39吧
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_132nd_Armored_Division_Ariete
这两个型号的坦克比起第22装甲旅当时用的十字军坦克哪个更厉害些呢？

iron duke

原先的第32团用的是M11/39，M13/40各半。这次第132团应该用的是M13/40坦克。
M13/40虽比M11/39有提高，还是比十字军要差。速度上公路速度32KM/H对42KM/H，行程200KM对322KM。47毫米比40毫米2磅的初速差很多(630M/S对792M/S)，穿透力反不如40MM。M13/40装甲最大厚度比十字军好点，但十字军是斜面装甲。
古比井之战意大利维基里头出现有  autocannoni da 102/35。
好象是个很特别的东西。
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/timrigsby_models.htm

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-2-2 07:57 编辑 ]

白星逐日

原帖由 dudjf 于 2008-1-31 20:22 发表
意大利的工业基础太差，部队装备在主要交战国家中就比中国强

意大利有完整的海军远洋舰队，这点上就比苏联强，航空工业也不差。
PS：中国在二战里真的除了人多没别的，没国产海军没国产空军......

boy

原帖由 iron duke 于 2008-1-31 19:43 发表
斯大林格勒参战就13万意大利军队，一个装甲师也没有，怎么守得住，守11天已经可以了。最后只剩了4万多人，较善战山地军几乎打光了。

根据我手头的资料苏联从11月19日突破，21日将第六集团军合围
那个时候意大利守的是哪段防线？我看的有关斯大林格勒的东西比较少，基本还是建立在政治性极强的回忆录的基础上的

朔风

原帖由 iron duke 于 2008-2-2 07:39 发表
原先的第32团用的是M11/39，M13/40各半。这次第132团应该用的是M13/40坦克。
M13/40虽比M11/39有提高，还是比十字军要差。速度上公路速度32KM/H对42KM/H，行程200KM对322KM。47毫米比40毫米2磅的初速差很多(630M/S对 ...

呵呵，这个防空炮是挺有意思，不知道能不能降下来打坦克

朔风

原帖由 boy 于 2008-2-2 10:19 发表

根据我手头的资料苏联从11月19日突破，21日将第六集团军合围
那个时候意大利守的是哪段防线？我看的有关斯大林格勒的东西比较少，基本还是建立在政治性极强的回忆录的基础上的

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_in_Soviet_Union%2C_1941-1943
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nikolayevka

By late autumn 1942, the ARMIR was placed on the left flank of the German 6th Army between Hungarian and Romanian forces. The German 6th Army was then engaging Soviet General Vasily Chuikov's 62nd Army in Stalingrad. The Italian line stretched along the River Don for more than 250 km from the positions of the Hungarian 2nd Army in Kalmiskowa to the positions of the Romanian 3rd Army in Veshenskaja. Veshenskaja is a village 270 km northwest of Stalingrad

On December 16th 1942 Soviet forces launched Operation Little Saturn aimed at the Italian 8th Army. The Soviet plan was to force the River Don, encircle and destroy the Italian 8th Army along the Don, then push towards Rostov on Don and thus cut the line of communication of Army Group A fighting in the Caucasus and the line of communication of 4th Panzer Army, which was in the midst of Operation Wintergewitter - the attempt to relieve 6th Army from encirclement in the city of Stalingrad. on December 16th General Fyodor Isidorovich Kuznetsov's 1st Guards Army and General Dmitri Danilovich Lelyushenko's 3rd Guards Army attacked the units of the Italian 8th Army, which were quickly overcome, encircled and crushed - in three days the Soviets had opened a gap in the Axis front 45km deep and 150km wide and destroyed two of the Italian Armys Corps's (2nd and 35th). The Soviet armored columns now rapidly advanced south towards the Black Sea. Thus 4th Panzer Army was forced to abandon its relief attempt of the 6th Army and fell back to halt the advancing Soviets.

iron duke

原帖由 boy 于 2008-2-2 10:19 发表

根据我手头的资料苏联从11月19日突破，21日将第六集团军合围
那个时候意大利守的是哪段防线？我看的有关斯大林格勒的东西比较少，基本还是建立在政治性极强的回忆录的基础上的

按下文，这次进攻第一阶段主要任务之一就是包围意大利的13万军队：
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Saturn#Operation_Little_Saturn
This operation consisted of a pincer movement which threatened to cut off the relieving forces. General Fyodor Isidorovich Kuznetsov's 1st Guards Army and General Dmitri Danilovich Lelyushenko's 3rd Guards Army attacked from the north, encircling 130,000 soldiers of the Italian 8th Army on the Don and advancing to Millerovo.
守11天是中央防线(即“都灵”等5个师)。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_in_Soviet_Union%2C_1941-1943
The Soviet 1st Guards Army then attacked the Italian center held by the 298th German, the Pasubio, the Torino, the Prince Amedeo Duke of Aosta, and the Sforzesca divisions. After eleven days of bloody fighting against overwhelming Soviet forces, these divisions were surrounded and defeated.

On 14 January 1943, after a short pause, the 6th Soviet Army attacked the Alpini divisions of the Italian Mountain Corps. These divisions had been placed on the left flank of the Italian army and were still relatively unaffected by the battle. However, the Alpini’s position had turned critical after the collapse of the Italian center, the collapse of the Italian right flank, and the simultaneous collapse of the Hungarian troops to their left. The Julia division and Cuneense division were destroyed. Members of the 1 Alpini Regiment, part of Cuneese, burned the regimental flags to keep them from being captured. Part of the Tridentina division and other withdrawing troops managed to escape the encirclement.

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-2-2 16:08 编辑 ]

iron duke

原帖由 朔风 于 2008-2-2 10:55 发表
in three days the Soviets had opened a gap in the Axis front 45km deepand 150km wide and destroyed two of the Italian Armys Corps's (2nd and35th).

意大利的部队分3个军：第2，第35军，和山地军。这第2和35军共6,7个师，好点的也就半摩托化，平均一个师守25公里...。其实头三天也就是打到击溃，destroyed似为11天

朔风

呵呵，没想到铁公爵兄此时上线。
布萨科论文译出来了，我先歇了:)