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楼主: iron duke

消失的军团-戴尔隆的第一军在四臂村

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发表于 2014-11-14 10:50:47 | 显示全部楼层
谁有那本写林尼的书?可惜不在手边,不然正好拿来对照一下,里面专门有一节写戴尔隆的调动
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-11-16 21:18:30 | 显示全部楼层
感谢乱臣在拿吧提供的补充。我在原文引用德萨勒的证词是来自吴塞的书,而吴塞把德萨勒原文作了省略,‘你的全部部队’应该是‘你的4个步兵师,骑兵师,全部炮兵和我配属给你的两个重骑兵师’。
由原文可见,德萨勒把配属给奈伊的直属部队克勒曼的两个重骑师,张冠李戴算给了戴尔隆。看来吴塞所认为命令是发给戴尔隆的证据又打了折扣。此外,他所列的11个旁证,有一多半并没直接说命令是给戴尔隆的,包括两个最重头的苏尔特的信件。
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发表于 2014-11-27 12:18:54 | 显示全部楼层
按照Franklin最近的鱼鹰四臂村专题说法,第一军出现在旺达姆侧后方后,除了对利尼造成了少许战斗影响外,还导致利尼战场的决定性攻击推迟了至少半个小时……

Napoleon prepared the Garde Impériale, so as to deliver the decisive blow upon the weakest point in the Prussian line. However, towards 6:30pm the emperor received a message from Comte Vandamme, stating that a dense column had appeared a league to his left and was turning the French flank. The intelligence caused an immediate suspension of the attack in this quarter, and a reconnaissance party was sent to discover the strength and disposition of the unidentified body.
Comte d’Erlon had followed the order he received from the emperor at 5:00pm to forsake his role at Quatre Bras and to march with his entire corps to St Amand. Having taken the precaution of sending his Chief of Staff, Baron Victor-Joseph Delcambre, to inform Maréchal Ney of his movements, he had marched towards the battlefield at Sombreffe. As before, the 4th Infantry Division commanded by Joseph-François, Comte Durutte, formed the vanguard of the army corps, along with the troops of the 2nd Brigade belonging to the 1st Cavalry Division under Baron Charles-Claude Jacquinot. These were followed by the 2nd and 3rd Infantry divisions of Barons François-Xavier Donzelot and Pierre-Louis Marcognet, while the 1st Division under Quiot du Passage brought up the rear.
The leading elements of Comte Durutte’s Division and the majority of the cavalry had reached the outskirts of the battlefield, opposite Wagnelée, shortly after 6:00pm, and it was their arrival, in rear of III Corps, which caused consternation on the left of the French line. Napoleon was surprised by the intelligence, as he had expected any reinforcement to arrive from the direction of the Namur road. Subsequently, Comte d’Erlon’s unexpected arrival afforded the Prussians the chance to re-form and delayed the final attack that the emperor had been preparing.
……
After a delay of more than half an hour the French renewed the attack on St Amand and continued the relentless struggle in Ligny, where by 8:00pm they had captured most of the village. The Prussian centre was exposed, and as a thunderstorm shrouded the battlefield in darkness, Napoleon launched the Garde Impériale. Six infantry battalions moved forward to join with those already engaged, followed by the duty squadrons and the cuirassiers of the 14th Cavalry Division under Lieutenant-général Delort. With support from the artillery the Prussian centre was pierced and the position carried, despite a desperate charge from three regiments of cavalry led by Feldmarschall Blücher. During the fighting the Prussian leader had his horse shot from beneath him and was pinned to the ground by the dead animal. Fortunately, one of his staff witnessed the fall and remained with him until he could be carried to safety.







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发表于 2015-1-28 14:58:16 | 显示全部楼层
以前在凯旋门看到过四壁村全过程,埃尔欣根公爵这一仗打的还是不错的,尤其最后那个后退重整的时机,把握的不早不晚(不知道是不是蒙的),最大限度地消耗了荷兰军,也没让英军趁火打劫。
算上后续援军的话,威灵顿一共投入28,000,埃尔欣根一共投入19,000,最后英荷联军撤退了,法军还留在战场上,前者损失超过5,000,后者4,000多。就这个结果来看,如果有戴尔隆的支持,埃尔欣根在四壁完整地吃掉荷兰都不是问题,那样最大估计也许能把威灵顿投入滑铁卢的兵力削减至6万以下。

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发表于 2015-1-30 05:52:32 | 显示全部楼层
儒尔当 发表于 2015-1-28 14:58
以前在凯旋门看到过四壁村全过程,埃尔欣根公爵这一仗打的还是不错的,尤其最后那个后退重整的时机,把握的 ...

兵力对比

法军骑兵始终占据绝对优势,步兵在下午四时前也是优势

最后英荷联军撤退了,法军还留在战场上,前者损失超过5,000,后者4,000多。

这个意义不大,法军是实打实地被逐回了出发阵地附近,没有完成战斗任务,富瓦说得好
我们可以如自己所喜欢的那样粉饰这场战斗,因为我们夺取了两门火炮,敌人却没有夺取火炮,得益于优势炮火,敌军损失也比我军多很多,我们直至夜幕降临还占据着比开始进攻时更多的土地。但这些说辞不过是在抓救命稻草。我们输掉了会战,因为我们未能完成占领四臂村的任务。

最大限度消耗荷兰军——如果真做到这一点,恐怕埃尔兴根是不会被枪毙的。实际上,尼德兰第二师在15-16日两天损失889人——百分之十一的损失低于所有参战英军步兵旅(1815 The Waterloo Campaign Wellington and His German Allies and The Battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras, P349)

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发表于 2015-2-14 21:50:39 | 显示全部楼层

下午四点:file:///G:/%E6%95%99%E6%A1%88/%E6%96%B0%E6%95%99%E6%A1%88/%E5%9B%9B...

本帖最后由 儒尔当 于 2015-2-14 21:52 编辑
装甲掷弹熊 发表于 2015-1-30 05:52
兵力对比

法军骑兵始终占据绝对优势,步兵在下午四时前也是优势

file:///G:/%E6%95%99%E6%A1%88/%E6%96%B0%E6%95%99%E6%A1%88/%E5%9B%9B%E5%A3%81%E6%9D%91/%E6%90%9C%E7%8B%97%E6%88%AA%E5%9B%BE20150214214736.png
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发表于 2015-2-14 21:54:34 | 显示全部楼层
下午四点,四点啊四点

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发表于 2015-2-15 21:29:13 | 显示全部楼层
儒尔当 发表于 2015-2-14 21:54
下午四点,四点啊四点

15楼的兵力对比出自法军专家Andrew Field的Prelude to Waterloo: Quatre Bras: The French Perspective第十六章

你拿一个来源不明资料不注的网页截图来反驳,不觉得可笑吗?
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发表于 2015-2-16 13:41:43 | 显示全部楼层
为什么戴尔隆本人会有两种说法?
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 楼主| 发表于 2015-3-14 21:46:27 | 显示全部楼层
一种解释是戴尔隆时隔十多年的两个回忆,可能有较大偏差。另一种解释是,戴尔隆两次都在编故事,传令副官并没主动性过头,主动过头的是戴尔隆本人,他半路巧遇副官拿到给奈伊的第二份命令,自作主张改道支援利尼,结果好心办坏事:奈伊急上火,拿破仑茫然。事后,戴尔隆编个故事好自己闪人。
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