冷兵之用，探讨贴

pires17

原帖由 zhangyiyanyu 于 2008-5-6 13:01 发表

楼主可能考虑的是中国的情况
中国的剑很早就成为装饰品了，在东汉末年的时候环首刀就已经开始被普遍使用，之后剑的作战意义就已经被刀所取代
而西方由于使用了重剑，剑的使用也成了以劈砍为主，之后的佩剑虽然形 ...

恩，恩。我就这个意思。
其实也就是说，冷兵近战的方式由突刺转向劈砍

iron duke

http://www.pattonhq.com/sword.html
In the Peninsula War, the English nearly always used the sword for cutting. The French dragoons , to the contrary, used only the point which almost always caused a fatal wound. This made the English say, "The French don't fight fair." Marshal Saxe wished to arm the French cavalry with a blade of a triangular cross section so as to make the use of the point obligatory. At Wagram, when the cavalry of the guard passed in review before a charge, Napoleon called to them, "Don't cut! The point! The point!"
半岛战争中，英国骑兵几乎总是用骑兵剑劈砍。相反，法国龙骑兵经常只用刺击来造成致命杀伤。这让英国人称“法国人没有公平战斗”。萨克斯元帅希望给法国骑兵装备剑刃三角截面的剑，使士兵只能刺击。在瓦格拉姆，当近卫军骑兵在冲锋前校阅时，拿破仑对他们喊道：“不要劈砍，用刺击，刺击！”


[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-5-8 18:47 编辑 ]

iron duke

原帖由 ViveI'empereur 于 2008-5-6 08:15 发表
我觉得，关键是如何对刀以及剑下定义。
按照中国人的理解，两面开口的才算剑，单面开口的就算刀了

西班牙的1803骑兵剑比较有意思。有两种型号。一种是全部两面开刃；一种是2/3长度单面刃，最后1/3长度两面刃。
http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/tropacab_e.htm
The first issued pattern for Line Cavalry was the 1803 sword (1799 according to other authors), although it could be in use long before that date, taking advantage of a very particular hilt that was used by Dragoons units since at least 1768. This straight-bladed sword presents two variants: one has a double-edged blade in all its length (see image below), while the other shows a single edge in first two thirds, being double-edged in the last third, close to the point. The iron basket-hilt presents knuckle-bow, two curved quillons, one short additional quillon and a safety catch. Blade length, 975 mm, width 34 mm. The scabbard is made in leather-covered wood, with iron mountings

ViveI'empereur

公爵有没有所谓的马刀的图片。
我对于欧洲关于马刀、骑剑的区分一直不是很明确。是不是两者为同一物件的不同翻译

iron duke

先接着贴一下西班牙的。
上为1728骑兵剑(sword)。
下为1803轻骑兵马刀(sabre)。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-5-7 18:39 编辑 ]

iron duke

上：法国近卫军猎骑兵马刀。
下：法国XI年式轻骑兵马刀(装备骠骑兵，猎骑兵，骑炮兵)
http://www.militaryheritage.com/swords.htm  里有更多图。

ViveI'empereur

感谢公爵的回帖。看来我原先的理解还是有误的，两者的区别还是比较明显的。
骑剑适于突刺，马刀善于砍杀

iron duke

以西班牙1803式骑兵剑为例,刃长 975 mm, 宽 34 mm。不短也不窄了。
1803马刀也就刃长855mm，宽35mm。宽度基本和1803直剑相同。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-5-7 22:31 编辑 ]

iron duke

刺是用剑尖，砍是用刀刃。既然855mm的刀用刃都可以砍到，比刀长10多公分的剑用剑尖刺到怎么会嫌短呢？
枪骑兵当时有，但是法国常规骑兵的9个团枪骑兵，和13个团胸甲骑兵+30团龙骑兵比，算是小头。枪的一个弱点是只能远距离刺，而靠近后，剑可以刺又可以砍，枪就不行了。
相比而言，拿破仑时代法国的骑剑主要偏用刺，英国的骑剑比较注重砍。有某些特例中刺击更易致命的优势很明显。比如半岛战争的比恩文纳达，英第3龙骑兵团的军官回忆12名英国骑兵被法国龙骑兵刺击阵亡，而法国骑兵被砍伤不少，但几乎无阵亡。
作为相对直剑不太适于刺击的马刀，在某些情况下也可以用刺作为作战方式。见：
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/cavalry_tactics.html#cutslashthrust
One could deliver an effective thrust also with the shorter curved saber. According to Charles Parquin, Prince Louis of Prussia, the king's nephew was killed by a thrust to his chest delivered by French hussar Guindey. "Brushing aside Guindey's weapon, the prince struck Guindey a blow across the face with his saber. He was about the strike a second time when Guindey countered and ran him through the chest. Killed instantly the prince fell from his horse."
Officer Chlapowski of Napoleon's Guard lancers, wrote that his lancers were also trained with the curved sabre to use the point. They typically inflicted many 'kills' while suffering only wounds and bruises from the wild cuts and slashes of the Hungarian hussars.

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2008-5-8 16:04 编辑 ]

ViveI'empereur

我也觉得，骑兵在高速突击中，使用长矛的杀伤力应该比马刀的杀伤力大。
毕竟，力汇集于一点对比散布在整个刀刃上，应该更具威力