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楼主: ViveI'empereur

[转贴] 二战中德军师和美军师谁的战斗力更强?

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发表于 2009-1-4 10:37:22 | 显示全部楼层
当然卡瑟林那次美军没有多少飞机干预,否则在没有空权的条件下打闪电战只是送死...诺曼底德军装甲部队的反击如此无力,恐怕就是盟军空军干预取得的出色战果。被隆美尔寄托很大希望的装甲预备队在前进途中遭遇连续空袭,隆美尔本人都差点在空袭中挂了...

[ 本帖最后由 朔风 于 2009-1-4 10:39 编辑 ]
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发表于 2009-1-4 10:39:02 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 ViveI'empereur 于 2009-1-4 10:25 发表
朔兄说得没错。
但这种比较毕竟还是很困难的,就像上次比一对一的时候,到底是衣阿华级还是大和级能够取胜一样,很难有什么定论。
但是,可能这一次你比较接近于事实。


共同探讨,呵呵。如果没人攻击我的理论,那我也就永远无法验证其是否能经受考验了。
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-4 10:42:08 | 显示全部楼层
德国人在自行火炮上没有什么优势,你指的应该是反坦克歼击车。
在炮兵方面,无论是自行的还是非自行的,美国人的优势太明显了。在步兵反坦克火力配备上面,美国人也有稍许的优势。
如果一对一进行硬拼,美军一定会选取有利地形进行反装甲防御战,运用炮兵和突击队迂回德军的侧后,打击德军的补给中心和兵站。
到底鹿死谁手,还真的很难说
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发表于 2009-1-4 10:47:33 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 LANCER 于 2009-1-4 10:23 发表
因为德军同样有一些超编部队,虽然即使是这种超编部队,其装备也不是没有问题的,就拿简单的说,即使是大德意志这样的超级师,它也没有能做到真正实现“装甲步兵化”。


发一下我在维基找到的“大德意志”装甲师编制。

Orders of Battle

Panzergrenadier Division "Großdeutschland" September 1943
Divisional HeadquartersDivisional Staff (32 Officers, 143 NCOs and Men)
  • Divisional Commander.
  • Ia (I General Staff Officer) (Chief of Operations). Trained general staff officer who both advised the division commander and helped draft plans. (Divisions Stabschef)
  • O1 (1st Assistant Adjutant). Assisted the Ia, prepared maps and the divisional war diary, liaison with neighbouring units, and structuring component units of the division.
  • Ib (II General Staff Officer) (Supply and Administration) Directed the supply and workshop units of the division, field police, provost marshall and field post office units.
  • O2 (1st Assistant Adjutant) Assisted the Ib and handled the organization of all back line services.
  • Ib/WuG (Waffen und Geräte - Weapons and Equipment). Responsible for replacement, repair, supply, and maintenance of ammunition, weapons and non-specialized equipment.
  • Ib/Kfz (Divisional Engineer). Provided for replacement and supply of motor vehicles, spare parts, tires, fuel, etc. as well as traffic control, the workshop companies, fuel points and columns.
  • Ic (III General Staff Officer). Intelligence. Responsible for interrogation of POWs, radio intercept work, etc.
  • O3 (Third Assistant Adjutant). Assisted the Ic, oversaw map unit and interpreters at division HQ.
  • Id (Training)
  • IIa (Adjutant) Handled administration such as loss and casualty reports, rosters, etc. as well as administration relating to officers - replacements, promotions, decorations, leaves, punishment.
  • IIb (Division Assistant Adjutant) Handled administrative matters described above regarding the NCOs and men and oversaw the divisional orderly room.
  • III (Chief of Feldjustizamt GD - legal branch). In charge of divisional courts-martial, civilian relations, legal matters.
  • IVa (Head of Intendantur). Supplies, clothing, medical, dental, pay matters, canteens, housekeeping needs, etc.
  • IVb (Divisional Surgeon) Commanded the medical services simultaneous with this position, responsible for sanitation and hygience, movement and treatment of sick and injured soldiers, procurement and maintenance of medical equipment.
  • IVz (Divisional Paymaster)
  • IVe (Chief Chaplain). While regular divisions had 2 chaplains (one Catholic, one Protestant) GD was forbidden from having chaplains after holding mass at Notre Dame in 1940. Divisional level chaplain support was provided as needed from the Corps level.
  • Map Section. Eight men charged with reproducing maps, overprinting captured maps, shot diagrams for the divisional artillery, etc. (Under O3, Divisions Assistant Nachrichten Officer)
  • Headquarters Company (under Divisions O4)

Divisional Escort CompanyOn formation of GD as a Panzergrenadier Division, a 219 man Divisional Escort Company was added to Divisional headquarters. Modelled after the escort companies of Waffen SS Divisions, this unit was intended to guard divisional headquarters, serve as a mobile reserve, and was in essence a small battle group suited to all operational circumstances. It included, according to varying sources, some or all of the following:
  • rifle platoon
  • motorcycle platoon
  • heavy machinegun/mortar platoon
  • infantry gun Platoon
  • heavy Anti-tank platoon
  • self-propelled FlaK Platoon
  • mixed Anti-Tank (Panzerjäger) platoon.

  Feldgendarmerie (Military Police)
Military Police Troop - Numbering one platoon of men, the Military Police detachment (recruited like the rest of the Army's MPs from civilian police) were equipped with light cars and motorcycles. Almost all military policemen not holding officer rank were NCOs (Unteroffizier or higher) excepting some drivers, in order to provide authority for their duties - including maintenance of discipline, but most importantly collection of prisoners and traffic control duties. GD had several hundred motorized vehicles which had to be moved over great distances both rapidly and efficiently.

Kriegsberichter (War Correspondent Platoon)
Responsible for recruitment and propaganda literature. GD was fairly unique in having its own correspondents permanently assigned to the division.


  Panzergrenadier Regiment "Großdeutschland"
  • Regimental Headquarters
    • Headquarters Company
      • signals platoon
      • pioneer platoon
      • motorcycle platoon
  • I. (SPW) Battalion (At the beginning of June 1943, 83 SPW halftracks arrived to equip the first battalion of the Grenadier Regiment.)
    • Headquarters
    • 1. Company
      • Headquarters
        • Rifle Platoon - light anti-tank rifle team, three squads, each with 2 LMGs
        • Rifle Platoon
        • Rifle Platoon
        • Heavy Platoon - 4 HMGs, two 81 mm mortars, heavy anti-tank rifle team
    • 2. Company - as above
    • 3. Company - as above
    • 4. (MG) Company
      • HQ Platoon
      • Mortar Platoon
      • Light Infantry Support Platoon
    • 5. (Heavy) Company
  • II. (Motorized) Battalion
    • 6. Company - as 1 above
    • 7. Company - as 1 above
    • 8. Company - as 1 above
    • 9. (MG) Company - as 4 above
    • 10. (Heavy) Company - as 5 above
  • III. (Motorized) Battalion
    • 11. Company - as 1 above
    • 12. Company - as 1 above
    • 13. Company - as 1 above
    • 14. (MG) Company - as 4 above
    • 15. (Heavy) Company - as 5 above
  • IV. (Heavy) Battalion
    • 16. (FlaK) Company
    • 17. (Infantry Gun) Company
    • 18. (Panzerjäger) Company
      • 1st Platoon self-propelled


Panzerfüsilier Regiment "Großdeutschland"
As for Panzergrenadier Regiment GD, above
  • Regimental Headquarters
    • I. Battalion
    • II. Battalion
    • III. Battalion
    • IV. (Heavy) Battalion

  Artillery Regiment "Großdeutschland"
  • Regimental Headquarters
    • HQ Battery
    • Observation Battery
    • Self-propelled light FlaK platoon
  • I. Battalion
    • Headquarters Battery and Signals Platoon
    • 1. Battery - 4 x l. FH. 18 (105 mm) howitzers
    • 2. Battery - 4 x l. FH. 18 (105 mm) howitzers
    • 3. Battery - 4 x s. FH. (150 mm) 18 howitzers
  • II. Battalion
    • Headquarters Battery and Signals Platoon
    • 4. Battery - 6 x Wespe SP (105 mm) howitzers
    • 5. Battery - 6 x Wespe SP (105 mm) howitzers
    • 6. Battery - 6 x Hummel (150 mm) howitzers
  • III. Battalion
    • Headquarters Battery and Signals Platoon
    • 7. Battery - 4 x s. FH. (150 mm) 18 howitzers
    • 8. Battery - 4 x s. FH. (150 mm) 18 howitzers
    • 9. Battery - 4 x K 18 10 cm howitzers
  • IV. Battalion - formed upon reorganization
    • Headquarters Battery and Signals Platoon
    • 10. Battery - 105 mm howitzers
    • 11. Battery - 105 mm howitzers
    • 12 Battery - 6 x Nebelwerfer
  • Armoured Observation Battery
  • Sound Ranging Platoon
  • 2 x Flash Spotting Platoon
  • Survey Platoon
  • Warning Platoon
  • 2 x Analysis Platoons

  Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion "Großdeutschland"
Reorganizations in June 1943 involved renumbering the 3.7 FlaK batteries 1 and 2, and the addition of 6 Battery
  • 1. Battery - 3.7 cm self propelled
  • 2. Battery - 3.7 cm self propelled
  • 3. Battery - 4 x 8.8 cm - halftracked prime movers
  • 4. Battery - 4 x 8.8 cm - halftracked prime movers
  • 5. Battery - 4 x 8.8 cm - halftracked prime movers
  • 6. Battery - Quadruple anti-aircraft guns

  Panzerjäger (Anti-Tank) Battalion "Großdeutschland"
  • 1. (Self Propelled) Company
    • 1. Platoon - 3 x Marder
    • 2. Platoon - 3 x Marder
    • 3. Platoon - 3 x Marder
  • 2. Company
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun
  • 3. Company
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun
    • 4 x 5cm PaK 38 AT gun

  Panzer Aufklärungs (Armoured Reconnaissance) Battalion "Großdeutschland"
Upon expansion to a panzergrenadier Division, this battalion adopted golden-yellow waffenfarbe and cavalry traditions for all its companies.
  • Battalion HQ
    • 8 motorcycles
    • 2 Kfz 15 cars
    • 1 Sd Kfz 247 armoured car
    • Battalion Maint Det - 1 motorcycle/sidecar, 1 car (2/40), 1 light car, 2 x 3ton trucks
    • Battalion train - 1 motorcycle, 2 light cars, 1 Kfz 15 car, 2 light trucks, 2 medium trucks, 1 medium (33 seat) bus
    • Signal Platoon
      • HQ Section - 1 mc, 1 mc with sidecar, 1 Kfz 15 car
      • 2 x pack radio sections "b" each with Kfz 2
      • 1 light armoured radio section "b" with 1 armoured car Sd Kfz 260
      • 4 x light armoured radio section "c" with 1 armoured car Sd Kfz 261
      • 3 x med armoured radio section "b" each with 1 car (Kfz 15) and 1 armoured car Sd Kfz 263
    • 1. (Armd Car) Squadron
      • Squadron HQ - 2 motorcycles, 5 motorcycle/sidecars, 1 Kfz 15 car
      • Heavy Armoured Car platoon - 3 x Sd Kfz 231, 3 x Sd Kfz 232
      • Light Armoured Car Platoon - 4 x Sd Kfz 222, 2 x Sd Kfz 223
      • Light Armoured Car Platoon - 4 x Sd Kfz 222, 2 x Sd Kfz 223
      • Light Armoured Car Platoon - 4 x Sd Kfz 222, 2 x Sd Kfz 223
      • Maintenance Section - 1 mc/sidecar, 1 car (2/40) 2 x 2 ton truck
      • Squadron Train - 1 Kfz 15 car, 3 x 2 ton truck, 1 med truck, 3 ton truck
    • 2. (Armd Recon) Squadron
      • Squadron HQ - 4 motorcycles, 1 mc/sidecar, 2 x SPW 250/3
      • Recon Platoon
        • HQ Sec - SPW 250, SPW 250/10
        • Squad - 2 x SPW 250/1
        • Squad - as above
        • Squad - as above
        • Squad - 2 x LMG
      • Recon Platoon - as above
      • Recon Platoon - as above
      • Heavy Platoon
        • HQ section - mc, SPW 250/1
        • HMG section - 3 x SPW 250/1, 2 x HMG
        • HMG section - as above
        • Mtr section - 2 x SPW 250/7, 2 SPW 250/7 without mortar (ammo carrier?)
      • Maintenance Section - 1 mc/sidecar, 2 x 2 ton trucks, 1 Kfz 10 halftrack, 1 x LMG
      • Squadron train -Kfz 15 car, 2 ton truck, med truck, 2 x 3 ton truck
    • 3. (Recon) Squadron (Volkswagen)
      • Squadron HQ - 4 motorcycles, 2 x Kubelwagen (Kfz 1)
      • Recon Platoon
        • HQ section - 1 mc, 1 x Kubel (Kfz 1), 1 anti-tank rifle
        • Squad - 4 x Kubel
        • Squad - as above
        • Squad - as above
        • Recon Squad - 2 x LMG
      • Recon Platoon - as above
      • Recon Platoon - as above
      • Heavy Platoon
        • HQ section - mc, 3 x Kubel
        • HMG sec - 7 x Kubel, 2 x HMG
        • HMG sec - as above
        • Mortar sec - 3 x trucks (Kfz 70) and 2 mortars (81 mm)
      • Maintenance Section - 1 mc/sidecar, 1 car (2/40)
      • Squadron train - Kubel (Kfz 1), 2 ton truck, med truck, 3 ton truck
    • 4. (Recon) Squadron (Volkswagen) - As above
    • 5. (Heavy) Squadron
      • Squadron HQ 3 x mc, 2 x mc/sidecar, 1 Kfz 15
        • Light telephone sec - 1 Kfz 15
        • Maintenance section - mc/sidecar, 1 car (2/40)
        • Anti-Tank Platoon - HQ sec - mc, mc/sidecar, Kfz 15
          • Ammo sec - 2 Sd Kfz 10 halftracks, 2 ammo trailers
          • Gun sect - 3 Sd Kfz 10 halftracks, 3 x 50 mm Anti-Tank guns, 3 x LMG
        • Pionier Platoon - HQ sec - mc, mc/Sidecar, Kfz 15, 2 x 2 ton truck
          • 4 x Engineer section (each with 2 ton truck)
          • 1 x Engineer section with LMG
        • Anti-Tank gun sec - mc/sidecar, 3 x Kfz 70 truck, 3 x 28 mm ATG, 3 x LMG
        • Infantry Gun Platoon HQ sec - 1 mc, 1 mc/sidecar, 1 Kfz 69 truck
          • Ammo sec - Kfz 69 truck, ammo trailer
          • Gun sec - 2 x Kfz 69 trucks, 2 light 75 mm Infantry guns
      • Squadron train - Kfz 15, 2 ton truck, med truck, 3 ton truck
        • Motorized light column
          • Column HQ - 3 x motorcycle, 4 x mc/sidecar, Kfz 15, 3 x LMG
          • 1 Section - mc, 5 x 2 ton truck
          • 2 Section - 4 x medium truck
          • Column train - mc/sidecar, 2 x medium truck

  Panzer (Tank) Regiment "Großdeutschland"
  • Regimental Headquarters
    • HQ Company - 17 x PzKpfw IV
    • I. Battalion
      • Battalion Headquarters Company - 17 x PzKpfw IV
      • 1. Company
        • HQ Platoon - 3 x PzKpfw V (Panther)
        • 1. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw V
        • 2. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw V
        • 3. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw V
      • 2. Company
        • HQ Platoon - 3 x PzKpfw IV
        • 1. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw IV
        • 2. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw IV
        • 3. Platoon - 5 x PzKpfw IV
      • 3. Company
      • 4. Company
    • II. Battalion (raised February 1943) as per I. Battalion
      • Battalion Headquarters Company
      • 5. Company
      • 6. Company
      • 7. Company
      • 8. Company
    • III. Battalion (joined Division August 1943)
      • Battalion Headquarters
      • Headquarters Company - signals platoon, scout platoon (motorcycles), pioneer platoon (2 x SPW, 4 trucks), flak platoon with 4 x quadruple guns, reconnaissance platoon with 7 x SPW
        • 9. Company - 14 Tigers
        • 10. Company -14 Tigers
        • 11. Company - 14 Tigers
  • Heavy Workshop Company
  • Maintenance Platoon - 3 Ton Trucks


Sturmpionier (Assault Pioneer) Battalion "Großdeutschland"
  • Headquarters
    • 1. Company - 219 Officers and Men
      • 1 Platoon
      • 2 Platoon
      • 3 (Storm boat) Platoon - 27 assault boats
This company was outfitted with armoured personnel carriers after Kursk.
    • 2. Company - 219 Officers and Men
      • 1 Platoon
      • 2 Platoon
      • 3 (Storm boat) Platoon - 27 assault boats
    • 3.Company - 219 Officers and Men
      • 1 Platoon
      • 2 Platoon
      • 3 (Storm boat) Platoon - 27 assault boats
    • "K" Type Bridging Column - Transported "K" type bridges - assembly responsibility of the companies above.
    • Light Pioneer Column

  Sturmgeschütz (Assault Gun) Battalion "Großdeutschland"
Formed from 16th Company, Infantry Regiment GD and the 192nd Assault Gun Battalion.
  • Headquarters
  • 1. Battery - also includes Sd Kfz 252 or 260/6 ammunition carrier - 6 x StuG III (7.5cm StuK gun)
  • 2. Battery - also includes Sd Kfz 252 or 260/6 ammunition carrier - 6 x StuG III (7.5cm StuK gun)
  • 3. Battery - also includes Sd Kfz 252 or 260/6 ammunition carrier - 6 x StuG III (7.5cm StuK gun)

  Panzer Nachrichten (Armoured Signals) Battalion "Großdeutschland"
Formed from IR GD Signals Company and remnants of 309th Signals Battalion
  • Telephone Company
  • Radio Company

  Medical Battalion "Großdeutschland"
  • Medical Company
    • Heavy Platoon
    • Light Platoon
    • Pharmacy
    • Dental Station
  • Medical Company
    • Heavy Platoon
    • Light Platoon
    • Pharmacy
    • Dental Station
  • GD Field Hospital
    • 1. Ambulance Platoon
    • 2. Ambulance Platoon
    • 3. Ambulance Platoon



Formed from IR GD Supply Services
  • Supply Services - 18 columns
  • Field Workshop Company
  • Field Workshop Company
  • Field Workshop Company
  • Replacement Parts Company
  • Armourer-Artificer Platoon
  • Administrative Services
  • Bakery Company
  • Butcher Company
  • Division Ration Office
  • Field Post Office[2]
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-4 10:48:56 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 朔风 于 2009-1-4 10:39 发表


共同探讨,呵呵。如果没人攻击我的理论,那我也就永远无法验证其是否能经受考验了。


好久没和朔风争论了,感觉朔兄沉稳多了,呵呵,还忘了祝新年快乐
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发表于 2009-1-4 10:58:58 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 ViveI'empereur 于 2009-1-4 10:42 发表
德国人在自行火炮上没有什么优势,你指的应该是反坦克歼击车。
在炮兵方面,无论是自行的还是非自行的,美国人的优势太明显了。在步兵反坦克火力配备上面,美国人也有稍许的优势。
如果一对一进行硬拼,美军一定会 ...


坦克歼击车也算自行火炮一种吧?
美军在炮兵方面的优势在于其野战榴弹炮自走化程度高,可是德军不会和美军打阵地战,以闪电战的打法是打开突破口后几乎不停顿的向纵深突击,不在乎据点得失,卡森林山口一战美军装1师发现每次撤退到新的防御阵地,该阵地早被德军突过去了。

美军如果在没有空军帮忙的条件下打仗,唯一希望是阻止德军建立突破口,或是在德军突击纵深还比较短的时候及时将其打退,但是如果美军只有大口径支援火炮的优势,在坦克和反坦克武器上都不如德军,就很难想象可以达成这一目标了。二战时期我觉得抛开空军不谈,反坦克的最佳武器还是坦克本身,德军的优势就在于坦克和突破力。

P.S 美军2003年在伊拉克用的都是德军这种打法,可参考HBO纪实电视剧《Generation Kill》
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发表于 2009-1-4 11:01:17 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 ViveI'empereur 于 2009-1-4 10:48 发表


好久没和朔风争论了,感觉朔兄沉稳多了,呵呵,还忘了祝新年快乐


呵呵,也祝你新年快乐。
是沉稳了点,因为又长大了一岁嘛
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发表于 2009-1-4 11:04:43 | 显示全部楼层
嗯这个编制倒也看过,朔前辈一定注意到了,装步团的一营才是装甲步兵营,而二三营的标志都是“摩托化”,实际上是坐卡车的。其实大德意志师的实力,主要体现在的还是它的装甲团上,这是绝大多数其他德国国防军装甲掷弹兵师不敢想的。
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发表于 2009-1-4 11:08:35 | 显示全部楼层
M36应该算二战最佳坦歼之一,不过它的敞顶其实也能说明一些问题了……
M26的性能也还可以,尤其是美军可以保证足够的高等级弹药的情况下。
自行火炮应该说各有特色,牧师很著名,长脚汤姆也不含糊(就是上战场太晚了);德国人除了标准型之外,还有很多杂七杂八的改装货,这也是德国资源不足的无奈表现了。

其实,德国人还是很重视火炮自行化的,可是……汽油在哪里 底盘在哪里 人员在哪里!

还得补充句,我倒觉得德国火炮自行化的思想方面是二战最领先的,从自行重步兵炮到自行火箭炮都有,至于产量就是另一说了。

[ 本帖最后由 LANCER 于 2009-1-4 11:13 编辑 ]
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发表于 2009-1-4 11:10:10 | 显示全部楼层
美军包抄并切断德军补给线不是不可行,但比较困难。德军的临时补给也是伴随机械化部队突过去的,在穿越敌人阵地和据点之后不做停留,继续向前突,到达较远的纵深之后形成再形成合围,而补给中心设在数日前已经将所有敌人清除的地方。例如德军某股装甲力量打开突击点,其道路上有A,B,C,D四个据点。德军装甲力量突破A据点立即向B据点走,A据点美军无法阻止其向前进,只能选择坚守或撤退。如果选择防守,那么可以说该部被分割了,其补给得不到保证,而且无法阻止德军后续部队的突击。如果撤退,那当他们赶到B据点会发现该据点已经被突破了,德军装甲力量正在向C点突破。如此往返,当美军残部集合到C点的时候,德军补给中心就可以安全移动到A点,从A点到C点的补给道路也完全通畅了。

其实闪电战从40年打法国到43年卡瑟林山口都是一个样子,打法国的时候可以参考老古的回忆录,德国装甲突击力量几乎不停歇的向前冲,短暂停歇一般也是在敌人2个据点之间的地带。美军的机步师03年在伊拉克也照搬了这种打法,伊拉克军希望在据点内打巷战,但美军不和他们打,他们依靠强大的机械化突击力打开一条通道就向下一点走,伊拉克军最后支离破碎...

[ 本帖最后由 朔风 于 2009-1-4 11:15 编辑 ]
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