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楼主: 偶木散人

[原创] 拿破仑的最后一战滑铁卢战役总结与研究

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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 07:51:04 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2018-12-31 06:44
个例太大太多还叫个例么?拿破仑建军的两大支柱人物之一卡尔诺,那是忠于国家还是忠于拿破仑个人呢?

这也是一个不知道你想要辩论什么的问题。1815年法军的优缺点很多著作都有论述,我想你应该读过很多。以你这么丰富的知识,不知道你真这么认为法国人出于对法国的热爱上下铁板一块支持拿破仑,拿破仑可以随便选人,还是就是只要我说的观点你就要反过来说。我不跟你辩吧好像我是错的,跟你辩吧我要重复引证很多材料,太很费时间,这样下去就是把楼累100层也没有结果。问题是这样无意的争论实在不必要,我这个帖子想要论述的东西都还没有开始呢,就纠缠在这些我认为已经clear的部分。

关于1815年法军,以下Perhaps Houssaye的评价是经常引用多的:
Such was the army of 1815 – impressionable, critical, without discipline, and without confidence in its leaders, haunted by the dread of treason, and on that account perhaps, liable to sudden fits of panic; it was nevertheless, instinct with warlike aspirations and loving war for its own sake, fired with a thirst for vengeance; it was capable of heroic efforts and furious impulses; it was more impetuous, more excited, more eager for the fray than any other Republican or Imperial Army after or before it. Napoleon had never before handled an instrument of war, which was at once so formidable, and yet so fragile.

你列出例子说明法国法军上下如何不计前嫌对拿破仑很忠诚愿意战斗,可是相反的例子我这里也一大把, for example:

Captain de Brack of the Imperial Guard Lancers summed up the feeling of the army:
The French army of the Hundred Days was not of the pure imperial sort. Already the few months of peace and the Restoration had changed it; the passive obedience, silent, respectful, confident, had been impaired. Its march, on campaign, was no longer cheerful firmness, heedless of ill, enthusiastic, the first cause of our success. Selfishness and treason (背叛)circulated in its veins, and it had the feeling of their vile fever.

Once again, the writings after the battle were quick to identify its cause. Lemonnier-Delafosse:
Although the entire army was superb and full of enthusiasm, it was necessary to inject new blood into its leadership; but the emperor … made the mistake of putting it back under its old leaders. Most, despite their speeches to the king, had not ceased to speak in support of the imperial cause; but nevertheless they did not appear disposed to serve with the enthusiasm and devotion that the circumstances demanded. These were no longer the men who, full of youth and ambition, were generous with their lives to gain promotion and fame; they were men tired of war, and, having achieved the highest positions, enriched by the spoils of war or the generosity of Napoleon, had no other desire than to enjoy their fortune peacefully in the shadow of their laurels.

The shortcomings and doubtful loyalties of many senior officers were obvious to the many loyal generals. (引自Field, Andrew. Waterloo: The French Perspective )

General Delort, who commanded a division of cuirassiers at Waterloo, later wrote:
Finally, a great number of generals and officers who had not only loyally served the king, but had also demonstrated a great devotion to him and to the princes of his family, were placed, by a bizarre twist of fortune, in a very difficult position, between the honour and love of his country, between the need that prescribed loyalty and the necessity to fight to support the dignity and independence of France. These strong conflicting motives in the hearts of the generals threw them into irresolution and discouragement.

Sergeant Mauduit summed up the feelings of the soldiers:
‘… a great fault had been committed, in employing certain commanders, for whom the words “glory” and “patrie” no longer had the same significance as for their subordinates....
Too many of our generals were no longer worthy of commanding such troops; some of them traitors (叛徒)on the inside, spoke against the triumph of our arms; others, incapable, indecisive and lacking spirit, went into battle half-heartedly.’







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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 08:00:39 | 显示全部楼层
你举证我也可以举证,这么循环下去恐怕谁也说服不了谁吧。我觉得这些问题就不要再辩论了吧,否则永远没个完。我列这些只是为了举个例子,不想在此浪费时间,还是回到战役进程的讨论比较有意义。
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 08:04:38 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2019-1-1 07:18
这不越争越明白么,那个“多数”里,现在不摘出那个达武和很多将军因其不适合指挥大兵团反对封帅是个子虚 ...

请举出证据:“还有那个儒尔当政治不可靠的原出处作者大卫钱德勒”, 要不你给罗伯茨写封信求证一下?
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发表于 2019-1-1 08:06:22 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
偶木散人 发表于 2019-1-1 07:51
这也是一个不知道你想要辩论什么的问题。1815年法军的优缺点很多著作都有论述,我想你应该读过很多。以你 ...

你这些主要是叛徒恐惧症的例子吧。这是另一回事了,不说官兵了,拿破仑还怀疑过达武有二心呢,后才发现达武和英国人接洽是想通过走私渠道多搞点武器。
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 08:08:06 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2019-1-1 07:31
第二次马伦哥,格鲁希带的师是三个步兵旅加三个骑兵团,在诺维是带师是两个步兵旅,在霍恩林登是三个步兵 ...

你列的都是你自己的看法,格鲁希和苏尔特谁适合独立指挥北方军团的右翼,在战役前从以往经验上看当然是苏尔特。你要是为了抬扛,你自己继续抬吧,不陪你玩了。
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发表于 2019-1-1 08:11:18 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
偶木散人 发表于 2019-1-1 08:04
请举出证据:“还有那个儒尔当政治不可靠的原出处作者大卫钱德勒”, 要不你给罗伯茨写封信求证一下?

罗伯茨给出处了还写什么信。第一,chalfont的原文根本没提担心独立指挥,更没说很多军官。第二,chalfont的那书细节本就不考究,看他上一句,莫尔捷指挥'近卫执弹兵'?咋给降师座去了?
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 08:14:41 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2019-1-1 07:50
格鲁希能力够不?够。格鲁希那点错能影响战役结果么?一点不能,瓦兰那个局别说换达武或苏尔特,絮歇一起来也 ...

对不起我从1815年战役结果上批评格鲁希了吗,你查查我写的帖子的历史有这些话吗?事实上我也没有认为格鲁希1815年表现很糟糕,他只是正常发挥而已。我说的是在战前拿破仑启用格鲁希为元帅并指挥右翼在历史学界历来是有争议的,你要是不同意就请列出滑铁卢的研究书目,有多少是认为格鲁希完全胜任并且没有争议的,这才是干货好吗?说了多少次了,不要再举战例了,你举的再多也是你自己的看法。
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发表于 2019-1-1 08:17:31 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
偶木散人 发表于 2019-1-1 08:08
你列的都是你自己的看法,格鲁希和苏尔特谁适合独立指挥北方军团的右翼,在战役前从以往经验上看当然是苏 ...

看法?你倒是把苏和格在上午11点左右所获情报拉个单子看看,格鲁希向北九十度都侦查了,但没法知道前夜不在自己行军范围的让亭那一路普军北去,滑铁卢是否决战尚不好确定,而苏尔特全知道。决策呢两边都是去瓦弗。苏尔特换过去能改什么了
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-1-1 08:27:15 | 显示全部楼层
iron duke 发表于 2019-1-1 08:06
你这些主要是叛徒恐惧症的例子吧。这是另一回事了,不说官兵了,拿破仑还怀疑过达武有二心呢,后才发现达 ...

“叛徒恐惧症?” 这么多人都有同样的“叛徒恐惧症”???  对不起,威灵顿也有,请看下面:

Given the lack of commitment and loyalty shown by the marshals to the emperor on his return, it is little wonder that Wellington, when asked if he expected any of Napoleon’s army to desert, replied,
‘Not upon a man, from a colonel to the private in a regiment both inclusive. We may pick up a marshal or two, perhaps; but not worth a damn.’

另外,拿破仑也有好吗:

Chef de bataillon Jolyet tells us how his own popular regimental colonel lost his command:
At the review, when the emperor passed before our regiment, he demanded to know who was in command. Cubières [one of the battalion commanders] advanced and said, ‘Sire, it is Colonel de Beurnonville; but he is sick’. Napoleon replied immediately: ‘Beurnonville is not one of ours; it is you, Colonel Cubières, who will take immediate command of the 1st Léger’. Cubières wanted to refuse; but the emperor made a sign of impatience and moved away. We left the review without much enthusiasm. We were sad to be separated from our good colonel Beurnonville, and above all sad thinking of the terrible struggles that were ahead. However, we took some comfort thinking that the brave Cubières would be leading us under the Tricolour against the enemy.'

另外,请你搞清楚我的观点再辩,我没有那么多时间耗在这些无谓的争论上。我说的是由于很多senior officer 和 commander 的忠诚度存在问题,影响到了1815年法军的cohesion. 以上举得那么多例子都在说明这个。

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发表于 2019-1-1 08:28:07 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
偶木散人 发表于 2019-1-1 08:14
对不起我从1815年战役结果上批评格鲁希了吗,你查查我写的帖子的历史有这些话吗?事实上我也没有认为格鲁 ...

结果没一点变还找更适合作什么呢?上头说了,两千本书攒观点跟版本集邮差不多。直接的原始命令,战斗序列,战斗进程那些是实在的。攒再多格鲁希只会带骑兵,不如去想法发现霍恩林登的格鲁希师三个步兵半旅不存在,当然这不可能
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