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[转贴] 揭开 二战中“骑兵悲壮战坦克”的历史真相

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发表于 2007-9-11 21:05:41 | 显示全部楼层
反思什么?

----

我想应该是波兰在一战后的狂傲,尤其在但泽问题上的出格,问题不在于它有没有“鲁夫特挖坟”而在于它以欧洲第四陆军强国一直自居的可笑。还有被英法盟国玩弄于鼓掌间--即西线静坐战争的反思。

再有,波兰当时可不止得罪了一个德国,莫斯科斯基也对被強划给波兰的原西乌克兰地区进行(即旧俄国边界)进行了应有的作为。

总之,作为威尔逊最不看好的凡尔赛成果之一的波兰,不知道自己的定位胡乱搞笑政治的风格,也不过是另一种极端罢了。


另外,说波兰骑神打毁78辆德国坦克,排除网络自由文字的泡沫,我遍查德,英,苏的战史,尤其是早期战史不可能对一个如此国家进行忌讳的前提下,根本没有只言片语说道这一伟大战绩。反而,在屈希勒的第三军正面,1939年9月7日在波兰北部普乌图斯科包抄莫德林集团军时,遭到掩护纳雷夫河渡场的破烂骑兵“勇敢无聊的进攻”,要说波兰军队的夜袭尚可那是无可厚非的,但是拿肉马加上已经被分割包围和被鲁夫特挖坟轰烂 的只有神能挽救的”波兰野战炮兵支援“对抗坦克???我想p2都可以赢得毫无压力。


波兰,欧洲版的韩国,韩国,亚洲版的波兰。都够满赛~
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发表于 2007-9-11 21:19:16 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 KleinKlauss 于 2007-9-11 21:05 发表
另外,说波兰骑神打毁78辆德国坦克,排除网络自由文字的泡沫,我遍查德,英,苏的战史,尤其是早期战史不可能对一个如此国家进行忌讳的前提下,根本没有只言片语说道这一伟大战绩。

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mokra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_4th_Panzer_Division
At the beginning of the Invasion of Poland (1939), the division was one of the first to cross the border with Poland in the area of operations of the Army Group South. Equipped with roughly 341 tanks, including 183 Panzer I, 130 Panzer II, 12 Panzer IV and 16 PzBef. the division lacked some infantry and anti-tank units. Immediately after entering the Polish territory, on September 1, the division was stopped by the Polish Volhynian Cavalry Brigade under Col. Julian Filipowicz and engaged in heavy fighting of the battle of Mokra.The German tanks proved to be inadequately armoured and the Polesinflicted heavy casualties on the German unit and repulsed most of itsunits, which lost roughly 160 armoured fighting vehicles in the battle (between 70 and 100 of them being tanks), mostly to Polish-made Bofors 37 mm anti-tank artillery and Kb ppanc wz.35 anti-tank rifles.

180多辆I号的第4装甲师,叫装备了37MM博福斯的波兰骑兵旅,以及骑炮营搞掉76辆不怎么太奇怪。波兰倒有个“车神”R.E.Orlik,靠TKS小玩具干掉了13辆35T,其中9月19日一天搞掉7辆。第4PANZER那16辆PzBef中的3辆也在9月14日一天内成了Orlik的猎物。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 21:49 编辑 ]
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发表于 2007-9-11 21:26:11 | 显示全部楼层
要说泡沫,波兰人还是很诚实的。波兰宣布的击落德机记录,比德国人自己宣布的还
少了70架。
285 German aircraft were destroyed, with 126 claimed by Polish fighter pilots. Ninety were shot down by anti-aircraft fire, and, due to the modesty of Polish pilots, there is a deficit of 70 unclaimed kills.
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:08:41 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 21:19 发表

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mokra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_4th_Panzer_Division
At the beginning of the Invasion of Poland (1939), the division was one of the first to cr ...


这是9月1日在mokra村的战斗,边境战斗,这能说明什么?骑兵在树林里眯着(1st and 2nd squadron of 19th Wolynski regiment charged Grodzisko forest
)有很多步兵师在掩护,轻装师进攻自然会有损伤,mokra战役的主力根本不是骑兵打的也不是波兰骑兵打坦克的来源,波兰战役中德国共损失坦克和装甲汽车各不过近300辆,具体数字如下:

Mokra-50 tanks destroyed
Piotrków-60
Warsaw-60
Battle over Bzura-40
Jordanów(south Poland 10 Motrized Cavalery Brigade)-40
Tomaszow Lubelski-40


而波兰骑兵打坦克的愚蠢行为,按照波兰自己的说法,是”集合队形时被古德里安突然钻了空子,结果骑兵被屠宰“。

看究竟根源来自何方吧:

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/cinema/rzepinski.html

Perhaps the most vivid image to have emerged from the September Campaign is the picture of a squadron of courageously foolhardy Polish lancers charging a wave of steel Panzers. That such attack never occured does not sem to have diminished the popularity of these tales, even among serious historians. The tales originated in the first days of the campaign from the pens of Italian correspondents on the Pomeranian front. They were embesllished by German propagandists and became more fanciful with each new telling. The orginal source was a small skirmish near the hamlet of Krojanty on the evening of 1 September. The Pomeranian Corridor was defended by several Polish infantry divisions and the Pomeranian Cavalry Brigade. The area was indefensible, but the force was stationed to prevent the Germans from making an unopposed seizure of the contested Corridor, as they had the Sudetenland. Upon the outbreak of war these forces were immediately to withdraw southward. Covering the retreat was Col. Mastalerz with his 18th Lancers and a number of infantry regiments. In the early morning of 1 September, Gen. Heinz Guderian's 2nd and 20th Motorised Division began their drive on Polish forces in the Tuchola forest. The cavalry and infantry were able to hold them back until the early afternoon, when the Germans began to push the Poles back. By late afternoon a key rail and road junction through the forest was threatened and Mastalerz was ordered to repulse the German thrust at all costs. Mastalerz had his own regiment, some infantry and the Brigade's tankettes at his disposal. The TK tankettes were old and worn out, and were left with a portion of the regiment to hold the existing positions. Two Lancer squadrons mounted up and began to swing around the German flank to strike them in the rear.
By early evening they had located a German infantry battalion exposed in a clearing. The squadrons were already within a few hundred yards, and a sabre charge seemed the sensible course. In moments the two squadrons had swept out of the woods and wiped out the unprepared with hardly any casaulties. As the troops were re-forming, a few German armoured cars equipped with automatic 20mm cannon and machine guns happened on the scene and immediately began firing. The Poles were completely exposed, and began to gallop for cover behind a nearby hillock. Mastalerz and his immediate staff were all killed, and the losses were terrible. The grim evidence of this encounter was discovered the following day by Italian war correspondents, who were told by German soldiers that it resulted from the cavalry having charged tanks and so the legend began. What has escaped attention was the fact that later that evening Guderian had to step in to prevent the 2nd Motorised Division from retreating 'in the face of intense cavalry pressure'. This intense pressure came from a decimated regiment which had lost 60 per cent of its strenght in the day's fighting and was not even a tenth of the size of the German unit it was pushing back."



German propaganda used this event to create 'stupid Polish cavalry' myth which was believed by Germans (some soldiers even wrote in their memories that Poles used their sabres and lances agains tanks and explained that they thought the tanks were made of paper) and Poles. Propaganda films even showed "authentic" charges on tanks. It is presented even in post-war Polish "Lotna" film, created by famous in Poland Wajda director. This film made Polish veterams very angry.


Why did Germans create the "stupid Polish cavalry" myth ? The propable explaination is they wanted to convince Western nations Poland was not a valuable ally. Such myths were made to prevent USA to make a serious protests and maybe prevent other nations to join the war.


附图:

这样的坦克,这样的骑兵和炮,其中在mokra那个枪骑旅居然还有胸甲








看看所谓使用瑞典伯福斯加骑兵海打坦克的后果!中间那匹躺着的和周围的破车不是农民的驴子和大车吧?

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发表于 2007-9-11 22:16:23 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 KleinKlauss 于 2007-9-11 22:08 发表
这是9月1日在mokra村的战斗,边境战斗,这能说明什么?骑兵在树林里眯着(1st and 2nd squadron of 19th Wolynski regiment charged Grodzisko forest)有很多步兵师在掩护,轻装师进攻自然会有损伤,mokra战役的主力根本不是骑兵打的也不是波兰骑兵打坦克的来源.

很多步兵师?几个?
我也没说这个是骑兵打坦克的来源呀,9月1日又不止这一仗。
我第6贴不早写明了:
The Pomorska Brigade veered from its assigned assault on Danzig when its staff realized that the German 20th Motorized Division had blundered past them and exposed their rear flank. The lancers mounted up and rode down an entire German infantry battalion before encountering German armored cars and giving rise to the slander that Polish lancers had stupidly attacked German tanks.

至于能说明什么?说明波兰人在条件很差情况下尽力打了,具体战术打得也不笨。不是糊涂到不知什么是坦克,以为拿长矛可以对付坦克。当然,落后规落后,骑兵自然赢不过坦克。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 22:30 编辑 ]
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:21:59 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 KleinKlauss 于 2007-9-11 22:08 发表
这样的坦克,这样的骑兵和炮,其中在mokra那个枪骑旅居然还有胸甲

是TKS啊。干掉13辆35(T)的奥尔利克就是用的这个小玩艺。火力升级为20MM。

[ 本帖最后由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 22:24 编辑 ]
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:27:48 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 22:16 发表

很多步兵师?几个?
我也没说这个是骑兵打坦克的来源呀,9月1日又不止这一仗。
我第6贴不早写明了:
The Pomorska Brigade veered from its assigned assault on Danzig when its staff realized that the ...


39年的时候,波兰的机动和炮兵牵引:

只有8个旅享受马拉待遇,没有摩托化,3个旅部分摩托化。

看:



很多步兵师,看当时的破兰军布阵,树林里眯着步兵和骑兵大部,外围4个侦察骑兵哨·37炮总不是骑兵架在车上用的吧?



本帖的主旨是波兰人要否认自己曾经的蠢事,但是阁下却用mokra这样最平常的步骑协同造成德军损失来证明波兰没有拿骑兵去冲坦克,显然,mokra甚至还不如华沙之役能够体现战果呢,但是根本不能证明波兰没有做过拿肉马冲骑兵的蠢事,破烂以前说是古德里安偷袭,或者是美国的鄙视,显然和mokra根本没有关系,因为波兰自己确实做过,而且他们也用其他理由承认了!呵呵~
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:28:50 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 iron duke 于 2007-9-11 22:21 发表

是TKS啊。干掉13辆35(T)的奥尔利克就是用的这个小玩艺。火力升级为20MM。


维克斯或卡登洛伊德,这玩意能干掉35t?还是13辆? 哦....
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:33:05 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 KleinKlauss 于 2007-9-11 22:27 发表

但是根本不能证明波兰没有做过拿肉马冲骑兵的蠢事

没想拿这个例子证明没有。问题是那个有(9月1日另一场仗)怎么回事顶楼不早解释了。
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发表于 2007-9-11 22:34:51 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 KleinKlauss 于 2007-9-11 22:28 发表


维克斯或卡登洛伊德,这玩意能干掉35t?还是13辆? 哦....

See G.Forty: Tank Aces From Blitzkrieg to the Gulf War
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